Are bricks and mortar stores dead?
Show Notes
Episode Sponsor: Rural Women’s Day
There’s this persistent notion that starting up a retail store in the main street of town is just too hard. From the high rents, cost of living crisis, to the relatively low foot traffic in country towns, finding a physical space to sell things, the ‘ye olde way’ can seem impossible.
But in this episode, we meet three business owners who have found success by leaning into the community side of their business. Economically, this might not make a lot of sense at first. How do you put a price on community? Well, in the country, it’s worth something.
The Botanic House in Nagambie, VIC and Workshop 26 in Kimba, SA have transformed their local streetscapes, created a community space with good coffee and atmosphere, as well as a retail store to sell their wares.
This episode features:
Krystie Holley – Founder and owner of The Botanic House in Nagambie, VIC
Heather Baldock – Co-Founder of Workshop 26 and owner of High Street Vintage
Danna Kassebaum – Owner of Zozo and Ace
So if you dream of opening up a store in your town, you will learn A LOT from this episode!
Thank you to our episode sponsor: Rural Women’s Day. Book to attend an event near you in October 2024.
Would you like to sponsor an episode of Ducks on the Pond? Contact us here.
This is a Rural Podcasting Co. production. Would you like to create your own podcast? We can help! Find out how.
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Jen McCutcheon: 0:07
We're not located near one of the big sites in Australia, so it can be a little more challenging to get tourists off the beaten path.
Natalie Egleton: 0:14
Our voices need to be loud in regional communities to get things and we need all of our regional communities to have the confidence to have a loud voice and to make a case for what they need.
Kirsten Diprose: 0:25
Hello and welcome to Ducks on the Pond by the Rural Podcasting Co. I'm Kirsten Diprose and with me is Jen McCutcheon.
Jen McCutcheon: 0:33
Hello thanks.
Kirsten Diprose: 0:34
It's great to be back. This episode is sponsored by Cheeky Mac Productions, who are looking for 1,000 rural women to survey about their experiences, to actually inform a documentary and some university research. So just click the link in our show notes and help them out. We'll hear from director and producer Danielle McAlpine-Johnson at the end of the episode. Now, for those of us living in regional and rural Australia, we know how amazing and unique our communities are. But how do we take what we have and showcase it to the rest of the country and even the world? Well, our guests are doing just that.
Jen McCutcheon: 1:14
Yes, you're about to meet Angie Armstrong, a city girl turned passionate country advocate, a dedicated foodie and tourism entrepreneur who, together with her fourth generation farmer husband and son Eamon, has turned their 140 year old grazing operation at Buddabadah in Western New South Wales into a thriving tourism hub and I know you will draw some inspiration from Angie if you have a big idea bubbling away, or, you know, it doesn't even have to be that big.
Kirsten Diprose: 1:44
Yeah, most things start small, exactly so. You'll also hear from Natalie Eggleton from the Foundation for Rural and Regional Renewal, or FRRR. They're a philanthropic organisation that have grants for community projects, so we'll get some advice from Natalie too about how to apply what they fund, and they have some really fun creative projects. It's all just about taking that first step.
Jen McCutcheon: 2:08
Yes, and Angie did just that. She took a leap of faith to realise her dream of launching a luxury agritourism venture and is now welcoming guests from all over the world. My name is Angie Armstrong and together with my husband, mike Armstrong, we run Callubri Station, which is a 28,500 acre merino sheep and wheat property in central West City, south Wales, nestled between the two little towns of Ningan and Tottenham. I moved here about 15 years ago, met my husband down in Melbourne, moved to the farm and have been here ever since. Farm's been in my husband's family for about 145 years. So incredible depth of history, fourth generation. And yeah, now we've opened up to agritourism.
Jen McCutcheon: 2:51
And tell us about those first. You came from quite a suburban life. You're a city girl, so tell me about those first few years when you got to the farm. And I guess that was on one respect, but you didn't know what was going to unfold in the next decade with mouse plagues and droughts and all that fun stuff. Yeah, sure, yeah, I grew up in the Yarra Valley, so rolling green hills and vineyards, a little bit different to where I am now, and we have a bit of a running joke that I told Mike that I grew up on a farm and in our first few dates he informed me that was a lifestyle property. So, yeah, first visit out to the farm. Out here, I was absolutely blown away by the expanse of the place and paranoid that I'd leave a gate open or do something wrong. Yeah, and I guess, when I first moved out here, it's that typical scenario of a fresh set of eyes on an environment that was quite foreign to me and I, yeah, found it really exciting but challenging at the same time, and I guess over 15 years it's gotten progressively more challenging but more rewarding as well.
Jen McCutcheon: 3:52
Obviously, four years of drought was pretty harsh. We ran out of water here, so the gardens that we'd installed for weddings and events we had to let go. The river was dry and the only water we could pop to the dam was filled with silt, so it blocked up all our drippers, which was great. And then, yeah, obviously mouse plague and a few other challenges in between. And then we decided to build on my background in hospitality and really the idea behind that partly was risk diversification. Ironic that we launched that at the start of COVID, so that put a real spanner in the works. A lot of our business plan was around group-based travel, providing completely exclusive use to the station, really high-end level of service and bringing in both road and air-based charters. Of course, the restrictions with group travel over COVID threw a complete spanner in the works with that one and we've basically been reinventing ourselves ever since. So, yeah, we're finally getting back to, you know, back to where we started, and rebuilding that sort of group-based travel concept and launching to an international market, which is really exciting. But, yeah, it's certainly been a challenging few years.
Jen McCutcheon: 4:57
So tell us about your agritourism project and how that fits in with the farm. Yeah, look, I think when we first started the agritourism, we were quite clear on wanting to offer something that was really authentic. So when we've travelled across the globe, the things we've really loved have been really grassroots experiences getting out to the countryside and meeting the people that live in that country and also hearing the smaller stories. We've really tried to base our offering around that firsthand experience with the owners of the property. Mike takes all the tours, I do all the chaffing and we also keep a quite small group, so we only host a maximum of 10 guests. So it really is that personal level of customer service.
Jen McCutcheon: 5:37
Did you find you had to set that boundary because where you're positioned, you just can't come there for a weekend. Really, it is that more. It takes two days if you're driving from Sydney. But did you see that sort of that fly-in, fly-out style was probably going to be more your market? Yeah, look, I think it's twofold. So the domestic market's much more a driving market. We do have occasional domestic charters as well, and especially over COVID, and for internationals. I guess one of our big selling points is that we're only a one-hour charter flight from Sydney, which is incredible, being our biggest international port. You know, it really is one of Australia's most accessible outback experiences.
Jen McCutcheon: 6:14
But yeah, certainly I think what we're trying to promote is people just going for something a little bit different. We're not located near one of the big sites in Australia so it can be a little more challenging to get tourists, you know, off the beaten path. But the experience is incredibly rewarding. And I'm the big bogans just around the corner, massive attraction. Do you find that there's a bit of a perception that sort of the world stops at Dubbo or even Orange and Mudgee? Yeah, look, and this has become much clearer in the last 12 months as we've launched the international markets there's a bit of a saying in tourism when they talk about the reef of the rock, and unfortunately it's still very true. I think we have some of the most incredible opportunities for tourism in land Australia, but there's a lot more in terms of promotion and certainly in terms of making it accessible for people, making it easy for them to get out here. A lot of the internationals stay along the coast and even looking at the figures from internationals coming into Sydney and making it beyond the Blue Mountains is incredible. I think we only get 32,000 international visitors a year beyond the Blue Mountains, which is just scary. A lot of the real Australians out here.
Jen McCutcheon: 7:27
I guess it's our challenge really in Agri-tourism is to try and make these products really attractive to guests and really easy to get out here, and I guess that's part of what we try and offer here. We include all the usual city luxuries, but try and also provide a true red dirt farm experience as well. And the buildings are quite amazing too. What you've been able to build too. Yeah, look, we took quite a conscious approach because there's 145 years of history here. A lot of the old log cabins were here on the property even before Mike's family's Incredible depth of history and when we were building our new accommodation we really didn't want to try and imitate the old. So most of our new buildings are really modern, so using shipping containers that three stories high overlooking a big mineral shipping container pool. They're very modern, very edgy, something a little bit different, unexpected. And then a lot of our older buildings. We've really tried to keep them and renovate them very true to their original nature, sort of embracing that old world, pioneering history and the 1930s history of about this way incorporating a lot of the old cooking items and butter churns and unique finds that we've found around the farm. So it's a lovely sort of juxtaposition of old and new and I think people find that quite interesting in that it's got two very different elements to it.
Jen McCutcheon: 8:42
We've had a podcast before in our last season looking at ways of diversifying operations and making farm operations more profitable, and often that comes down to a bit of a feminine eye. Even last year, when the wheat crop went to poo, managed to flip the script and start making your own flour and even selling wheat to Sydney. How do you get to keep that positive thinking and your brain ticking over when some days can be really grim in this life. Yeah, look, I think it's challenging and I don't know. Sometimes part of being super creative is hitting that up to the rock bottom and then thinking, okay, best way out of this is to find something that feels productive. And often it's not about making a lot of money, it's just about, you know, in quite hopeless situations where there's a lot of things out of our control, like weather and you know the environment it's really looking at what you can control and then sort of building a solution around that. Certainly, our online store is not making millions at the moment and you know, I have been known to try and sell bunches of wheat to farmers, but at the same time, it feels really productive. It's got a really lovely sense of authenticity to it where we've now built our online store to do seasonal hampers, so we basically produce items that we grow on the property so both in our market and kitchen gardens and also out in the property as commodity crops and combine the two in products and it's been quite popular. So I think you know all of us out here.
Jen McCutcheon: 10:14
It's often about reinventing yourself, trusting your gut and never saying no to an open door. What have some people scratched their heads before going. What is she thinking? What have some people scratched their heads before going? What is she thinking? Oh, absolutely. I remember when we first installed the shipping containers, someone asked me how my dongers were going, because obviously shipping containers are a little bit tied to mining camps out this way, but I assured them that our shipping containers are a little bit more luxurious than that. I think anything worth doing is always going to be a little bit challenging, and often people doubting you or asking questions is where you get a much stronger product from. So I'm a big believer in you end up with a much better product when you consider those that criticize you as opposed to those that give you credit.
Jen McCutcheon: 10:59
And you're not alone in this. A lot of people are turning to this. I know a local pub near you in Ningan is being restored. There's a lot of people are turning to this. I know a local pub near Ewingan is being restored. There's a lot of these things going on around here, and in fact, I was reading a stat the other day by 2030, CSIRO estimates the appetite for agritourism in Australia will be worth $18 billion annually. That's a big market to be tapping into. Look, it's incredibly exciting and I think, by default, we've fallen right at the start of this journey. Certainly, I put my hand up whenever Tourism Australia or Destination New South Wales asked me to speak or be on a panel or promote agritourism in any way, because it's certainly something that I'm incredibly passionate about these days.
Jen McCutcheon: 11:38
I think one of the challenges is really pushing the definition of agritourism beyond visiting a farm or visiting a station. Certainly, things like the wellness market is absolutely massive at the moment, and when you take the elements of something like that, farms have that in abundance. Promoting being out in nature, really cutting to plate dining, enjoying each other's company and reconnecting with friends and loved ones all of those sorts of things is where we really need to redefine what agritourism is and how, naturally, it really supports a lot of those trends. I guess in the middle of the drought, mouse plague, everything money is not freely available. Were you able to get some grants to help you as well as doing it on your own? Yeah, so we were really lucky.
Jen McCutcheon: 12:21
In 2020, I applied for a grant through Destination New South Wales and the support has just been incredible. And it's not so much even just the financial, dollar for dollar match support with the initial costs. It's the ongoing networking and support and a foot in the door with other tourism organisations that's really helped us to get a leg up in that industry and just being able to rely on the knowledge of those experts. I think a lot of the time people don't realise how much support is out there and you really just have to throw your hat in the ring and see what happens. But more so than that, even if you don't get the grant, just the connections you make and the advice they can give you and the networking through that is incredible. And is that something you've seen? Not just through your business? And I know there's a lot of grants out there for not-for-profits as well. So then, with your catering business and that, have you been able to benefit from maybe another organization getting a grant and then them helping your business? I guess?
Jen McCutcheon: 13:19
With the event, yeah, we've been approached quite often to do catering for events out this way where people have either been in the process of applying for a grant or managed to get some money to bring people together and focus on the social connectivity and yeah. So things like cooking demonstrations. We've done catering for women's events. So, yeah, it is really important and it's a bit of work to put in for these things, especially for not-for-profits, because they obviously are a bit shorter on time, because they're all volunteers. But there is an incredible array of support both through state and federal government schemes to put on events out in the bush and it's important that we keep applying for it so that it really does give these events a real leg up.
Jen McCutcheon: 14:02
And what would you say that grant was able I know you said it connected you with lots of people as well, but what did that take it from? Was it able to help you take your business to the next level and the accommodation and what you wanted to provide? Yeah, look, I think when I first started I didn't have a really good understanding of the tourism industry, the different levels of the tourism industry, how that network works, and I also didn't have a really good understanding of the tourism industry, the different levels of the tourism industry, how that network works, and I also didn't have a good understanding of the scope of the type of product we could offer out here. So I hadn't really considered charter flight groups. I was thinking more road-based travel. So it really opens your eyes up to the different areas of tourism that you can get involved in and perhaps taking your idea that next step further than what you'd considered.
Jen McCutcheon: 14:46
So getting that industry advice is just absolutely invaluable and even if it's not something you do right at the start, it gives you a concept of where you can take the business as well. Are there people that can help step you through the process and even just trying to find the right application? And how do you go about navigating that minefield and then making and doing the application? Yeah, look, I think it is a bit of a minefield and there's a lot of different grants and support out. I think probably one of the most important things is just sign up to these newsletters so that you're regularly getting communications around which grants are coming out, when they open, when they close and what's involved, and then obviously just looking at each grant and deciding if you've got the time and energy to complete that level of submission. But certainly sometimes the grants actually aren't that difficult to apply for and absolutely you know you should throw your hat in the ring and see what comes out the other side and I think once you've done one or two of the bigger grants, it really gives you a great concept of what's involved and you then have those documents going forward.
Jen McCutcheon: 15:45
Certainly, when we applied for the Destination New South Wales grant quite a few years ago, one of the best things I did was a really in-depth analysis of competitors and where we would sit in the market and our target market, and I probably went a little bit more in detail than I would if I was just doing it on my own. So you'll be surprised by doing the grant process, often you really do pick up a lot of insights into your own business and planning that you may not have done otherwise. Also, you know, often it's not just cash grants, it's online training and support to develop digital assets and, yeah, that knowledge has been incredible as well. And I guess, in terms of applying for grants, there are always people you can go to that can help support you to write these things if you are short on time. I've done a bit of work with a group called Tourism Tribe, who, again, I met through Destinationism, and they've been fabulous in terms of supporting us and giving us a bit of a strategy going forward for some of these things. And now I guess, four or five years later, you're reaping the rewards for those grants.
Jen McCutcheon: 16:45
Yeah, definitely, and, as I said, the cash grant obviously was an incredible support with the costs of building and those sorts of things.
Jen McCutcheon: 16:51
But I now keep in contact with all the people that I've met through that process. I've been involved as an agribusiness panelist on a number of occasions, which I wouldn't have got those opportunities had we not applied for the grant. So, as I said, like just the networking and collaboration that sort of comes from being involved in these programs is really exciting and I guess the more people put in for it, the more they'll see that there's the need to invest in these projects that are past the sandstone curtain or in more remote locations, not just in the normal tourist locales. Yeah, and that's really important. I think a lot of us in inland Australia sometimes think no one wins these things out here or that's not for us, and the thing is we need to keep being involved and keep giving it a shot, because the more noise we can create in inland Australia, the more visitors hopefully will get out this way and the organisations that are responsible for funding and policymaking will always have us in mind then when they're looking at these programs.
Jen McCutcheon: 17:54
It is important that we keep that level of noise up. You were recently at a big conference or workshop international tourism. Tell us about that. Yeah, so we went down to Melbourne a few weeks ago to the Australian Tourism Exchange and that was incredible, especially being from the bush and having not seen people for a few weeks. Seeing a few thousand across a few times was pretty insane, but it's just an incredible opportunity. So both Tourism Australia and Destination New South Wales have a lot of different pathways for new products to launch the international market and they support you the whole way along. And Tourism Exchange in Melbourne involved 15 minute meeting with business to business and across I think it was three or four days we did and basically it's like speed dating of the tourism world. So incredible opportunity to match with buyers who are interested in your level of product, both at the retail, wholesale and domestic level. And, yeah, just an incredible way to really launch particularly our product, which is in a lesser known region, to an international market.
Jen McCutcheon: 18:54
And on top of all this, you're running a massive farm with your husband and raising a little boy as well. You recently broke your foot, I think it was, and you still managed to pull up. You don't sit there in the kitchen, you're out on the tractors and sowing and harvesting as well. Yeah, and look, I think that's one of the probably the most rewarding things I find about it, but also the most stressful. We're all used to doing small business, jumping into whichever role you need to, so sometimes I'm mum, sometimes I'm always mum, but also tractor driver, a harvester driver, I'm the main chef, I do the websites and marketing and all that sort of stuff as well, but it certainly keeps life interesting. It can be quite challenging pairing an agritourism business with a full commercial farm, but at the same time I feel really passionate about providing that insight. I think traditionally agritourism businesses have often looked at more product-facing markets and not so much commodity markets, and there's certainly a really huge opportunity to open more commodity-based producers up to agritourism, and people are fascinated to see the scale of those kind of operations.
Jen McCutcheon: 19:55
So there's a lot of challenges with running the two parallel to each other, but a lot of the time it's just about customizing the product depending on what's happening on the farm During harvest time. It's certainly a very tricky time to have guests, but we try and work that around different types of products. For example, at shearing, instead of using my husband to do the tours, we actually bring in the commercial photographer to run a photography session. So we just change the focus a little bit so it fits with the farm.
Jen McCutcheon: 20:20
Wonderful, and can you give me any of the feedback from some of your guests? Yeah, look, we've just started welcoming our Birth International. So we had some guests from California the other day who were on their way to Broken Hill and the feedback has been really incredible. It's often reduced me to tears in a good way. Yeah, look, I think people find it really unexpected because we're not near a big attraction. We are off the beaten path, we're down a dirt road which has its own challenges, but really, after a few days out here, it's lovely to see how people really relax into the environment. We call it surrendering to the rhythm of the land, which is a beautiful term that a journalist at Visitors use.
Jen McCutcheon: 21:02
And I just think that describes it perfectly. It really gives people a chance to disconnect, to sort of reconnect, and just breathe and turn off for a bit. It's amazing how much we all need that. And just breathe and turn off for a bit. It's amazing how much we all need that. Yeah, so no, I've been quite surprised too. We do a lot of Indigenous herbs and spices, and people love seeing how they grow and how they translate through to the plate. Certainly, a lot of it is just about watching what your guests really enjoy about your product and developing it based on that feedback as well. So I'd say, now our tours are, you know, half around the commercial side of the environment, more around the cooking and market gardens and those sorts of things. So yeah, it's been interesting to see how it's changed over the years, especially for a lot of us who have more fake plants than real plants. It's nice to see what you can grow in this sort of area and climate as well, because, as you said, we go from drought to floods and everything in between. What would you say? I'm sitting here and I know we've got a wool shed that's 100 years old, and what would you say to someone who's thinking, okay, I'm going to go turn my wool shed into an epic wedding venue.
Jen McCutcheon: 22:05
What are some of your tips and tricks and things to be wary of? It's not just as simple as opening the doors and throwing a wedding. I guess my biggest advice is don't be afraid to dip your toe in and start small. It's a process. It's not about coming up with the final product right at the start. So I think probably one of the most important things is just not being afraid to start. It's much better to have started than to have a perfect product. And that's just so true because really you take the advice and the feedback of your guests and develop the product as you go along.
Jen McCutcheon: 22:35
You know we don't just all launch straight away into a wedding venue. You know I've been catering for 15 years. I'm completely self-taught chef. I had no idea what I was doing at the start when I first began. I was moving slow cooked cats or owls from one domestic slow cooker to the next. It was ridiculous. So you know we didn't all start just with a hundred seater wedding venue.
Jen McCutcheon: 22:54
You know you start by doing small markets and following your passion and really follow your gut. So trust what you think will work. Start small, gather the feedback from it. Don't be afraid to seek support there's incredible support through Destination New South Wales and I think a lot of people don't realize there's that level of training and advice out there and certainly even connecting with other producers in your area that have, you know, already gone down that path, so that can save you a few mistakes. But certainly don't be afraid to start, because you only have one life, so you might as well follow a passion. Definitely that's a nice note to finish on. When are your next guests arriving? We've actually got racing off to another expo tomorrow and then, as soon as I get back, we've got two rounds of guests. Yeah, no rest for the wicked.
Kirsten Diprose: 23:39
No rest. Indeed, I honestly don't know how she's managed to maintain such a positive outlook with so many hurdles thrown their way. But hey, that's the spirit of the bush.
Jen McCutcheon: 23:50
Exactly and it just goes to show if you build it, they will come, and it's amazing to see the different types of tourists they're attracting. Most people might not see the big bogan in Ningin as a destination, but Angie and her family are finding their own way to make their region attractive to a global audience.
Kirsten Diprose: 24:07
And, like Angie was saying, there's so many grants out there that people can access and actually most of the grants are for community or not-for-profit organisations. Like it can be harder sometimes to get a grant when you are a business, but I asked Natalie Egleton about that. She's the CEO of FRRR. They fund community groups to deliver unique events or experiences to their communities. So let's meet Natalie.
Natalie Egleton: 24:32
So my family are from Gippsland originally and they've been there gosh must be going on 70, 80 years or thereabouts, so that's always been a place that's had meaning for me. And then I grew up mostly in Melbourne though, but as a kid we had a little property out in central Victoria that we went out to on weekends, and that was during the drought. We went out to on weekends, and that was during the drought, and so my memories of being in, you know, rural Australia as a kid were of running through dry creek and riverbeds and fires and dust storms. So when I joined FRRR many years later, I joined in a role that was focused on natural disaster recovery and supporting regional communities, particularly through events like that. So there's a bit of a thread there.
Natalie Egleton: 25:17
But, yeah, I guess I've always had a very strong affinity and it always felt like where I needed to be, even though I didn't live there as a kid and then married a farmer's son who was steered away from the farm as a kid but still got really strong connections there. And now we live in a small town in central Victoria called Malden, in beautiful Dja Dja Wurrung country, and we've been here for gosh, it's going on 15 years now.
Kirsten Diprose: 25:41
Malden is beautiful and in that 15 years it's grown quite a bit. It's had a boom.
Natalie Egleton: 25:46
Central Victoria has had a boom. Castlemaine down the road has become a whole thriving little place. And Malden we love because it's got its own identity and it feels really different to other places and it's got layers of great community. There's an arts community. There's all these different careers and professions, there's people with weird and wonderful backgrounds who have ended up here, who've got amazing stories to tell. Someone who was like a fine artist in Paris who used to specialise in antique wallpaper, People like that. And then we've got our farming community and people who are still growing and producing here. So it's a really vibrant little place to live. We love it yeah special.
Kirsten Diprose: 26:22
I think that's really interesting because, like every country community is like that, as in, they might not have the Parisian wallpaper person, but they have this kind of unique set of people that makes it diverse, and I think there can be an assumption that all kind of towns in Australia are the same from the outside, but really they're not. There's this absolute uniqueness that needs to be celebrated and I think FRRR does that really well. That's right.
Natalie Egleton: 26:54
I think what we see at a surface level are very similar stories and similar narratives about what's happening for rural towns. But, yes, you scratch the surface and that is what makes them thrive and the layers of the stories that have built up over time and the ways that communities capitalise on their strengths and assets and bring people together around particular ideas. That gives them their unique flavour and flair. And at RRR, yeah, we have the absolute delight of getting to scratch that surface every day and having conversations and providing funding for communities to really get going on those ideas and do really fun, creative things that are, I think, really enabling them to be celebrating of who they are, not just tapping into that narrative, which is often a bit negative about rural towns. You know, there's often a bit of a poor cousin kind of theme that we hear and we often hear about the hardship, but when you really back communities in rural places you get to see the spirit really come to life and you get to see all of the richness that can be celebrated.
Kirsten Diprose: 27:54
How have rural communities changed over the years? I was just sort of reflecting on this the other day about the opportunities that are there now that perhaps weren't there 20, 30 years ago, and part of that's technology. But I find a lot of women in particular are setting up their own businesses or communities are doing some really interesting things. Has there been a shift, do you think?
Natalie Egleton: 28:17
I would say that rural towns have got an innate innovation culture of innovation.
Natalie Egleton: 28:24
I think it's always there.
Natalie Egleton: 28:25
I do think technology has been a major catalyst and it continues to be a barrier in many ways.
Natalie Egleton: 28:32
But the ability to do things from a place rather than having to leave a place is actually a pretty phenomenal step change.
Natalie Egleton: 28:40
And for women in particular, who have built up often really amazing skills but have either had to leave to use them or have had to potentially download them or put them into something else, that's not necessarily enabling their full set of talents to be utilised. So I think technology has really enabled that from a micro enterprise perspective, or being able to provide, even when we think about online spaces for arts and creatives or for entrepreneurship to be flourishing and enabling micro businessesbusinesses and that kind of thing to get us set up. And we've provided at FAA lots of grants that have supported particularly women to build their capability in digital business so that they can enter the marketplace in a really robust way and offer something, and that's a whole range of different skills. So I do think that the last 15, 20 years has really seen a big shift in what's possible, but there's also been a I'd like to think a shift in or an opening up of space for women to lead.
Kirsten Diprose: 29:46
Yeah, I'd agree with that. Tell me about FRRR. What kind of grants do you?
Natalie Egleton: 29:52
offer. I think FRRR is a really unique organisation. It's different to other philanthropic funders or corporate funders or government funders in that A we exist purely for regional communities. I think FRRR is the only foundation with a national footprint that purely focuses on regional Australia. Our funding is, I always say we're unashamedly biased towards smaller and more remote places. So we really the heartland of regional Australia is very much those inland communities and those places that are producing so much for the country and also challenged by their smallness and their remoteness. So we really try to focus our resourcing there, because they often find it pretty hard to access funding or compete for the bigger grant programs et cetera.
Natalie Egleton: 30:35
So we offer a whole range of different grant programs. They tend to be smaller amounts of funding $10,000, $15,000, $20,000, $25,000. And they're really, I guess we take a whole of community approach in all our funding. Whilst they might have a focus on mental health or environment or disaster recovery, it's really about how funding can help to strengthen the whole community. So we'll be looking at programs and initiatives that will help to bring the most people together as possible, that will have the benefit for the widest number of people in the community possible or have the most ripple effects as a project.
Natalie Egleton: 31:08
So that's what we love about small grants they often have massive ripple effects. You can just drop one little bit of funding into a community hall, for example, and just installing a new roof and a new AB system can transform the use of that place and bring in a whole range of other activities and opportunities for a place. So the small grants thing is a big part of our funding model. And then we also do a lot of place-based work, so quite deep multi-year, where we will work with particular communities or regions over, say, three to five years and provide funding along with different types of capacity building support. So we've been delivering projects like that through the Future Drought Fund, so nationally across ag regions, focused on strengthening drought resilience and preparedness at a community level. So it's really about social capital and we actually make sure we've got our people really ready, because we know when times get tough that it's the social fabric that kind of gets pulled on really strongly and that we really need to draw on.
Kirsten Diprose: 32:05
You know, I think like words like capacity building and social capital are thrown around in academia and I work in this space and it does my head in, but because I think people don't know what it means. I don't know what it means. I say this as someone who's writing papers about it, because there are so much debate about what these words mean. But what does it look like on the ground? Because that's the only thing that I actually care about, even though I have to use these words when I write about it.
Natalie Egleton: 32:31
Good question and it's great to be picked up on these things because, yes, we get caught up in our own understanding of we get what we're talking about.
Natalie Egleton: 32:40
So a few examples in the initiative that we're running in eight New South Wales communities at the moment, focused on the not-for-profit sector, capacity building is about strengthening their skills, their capabilities, their readiness for change and disruption, and so it's things like supporting them to make time and space for collaboration with other organisations.
Natalie Egleton: 33:03
So getting together in a room with as many of the organisations as makes sense in a particular community and saying we all think that this is a problem, whatever it might be let's say, transport access or access to allied health services If this is something that we're collectively experiencing, we know individually we can't quite deal with it ourselves, but collectively we might be able to If we were to think about what we each bring and what we can each bring as a problem solving and a solution kind of space, what are our assets, what are our capabilities, what don't we have and what do we need to get.
Natalie Egleton: 33:37
That's a capacity building process, but there's never funding for that, there's never space and time for that and it's really hard to do and you often need outside help to broker it or to help frame it or get the right questions in the room, make sure the right people are at the table. And so when we think about a capacity building kind of framing, the outcomes of that kind of process could be that community then has much better services, they might have a much more efficient use of what they've got, and so their capacity as a community is stronger to actually do more and do better and to change things on their own terms. So that's a kind of practical thing. And then we've got actual capacity. That's in numbers of people who have got jobs, numbers of people who are running organisations, volunteers, leadership capability, people who can continue to grow, bring in the next generation.
Kirsten Diprose: 34:30
Yeah, and that's a really great example. And it's interesting because I think some communities will have some people in them that will be able to lead that process on their own, but perhaps others might not. And you can see the ones that do, because they go on and do these great things and perhaps take a grant and off they go, but others almost need that building block before they're able to then take that grant and off they go.
Natalie Egleton: 34:54
Absolutely yeah, and that's the way we think about small grants, often those little bits of money that have that ripple effect Over time. It builds confidence, it builds a bit of momentum, it builds experience in doing stuff together and having some wins and having some losses, and then, yes, there's that. How do you then take that next leap to be able to really catalyse and get going on some bigger stuff? And at FRRR, we're really passionate about enabling and supporting communities to get that momentum and that confidence and to be able to then go and kick goals and advocate really strongly for themselves. Like our voices need to be loud in regional communities to get things.
Natalie Egleton: 35:30
And we need all of our regional communities to have the confidence to have a loud voice and to make the case for what they need and to make the case for what they give to Australia, and so that sort of building block as you described it is really important and to know that there's others behind them and that they've got a bit of a fallback. If they need a bit of extra money, they need a bit of extra someone to talk to, and so we're thinking about this idea. What do you think? Who else should we talk to? Has anyone else done this. So for FRRR we try to be that kind of connector as well, as the funding is kind of a tool but the process and the actual kind of activation of what happens when you do that is really exciting.
Kirsten Diprose: 36:06
Yeah, I certainly had a very positive experience of FRR back in 2017 when our local hall, the Woodhouse Hall, applied for a grant. It was a small grant $5,000, which certainly wasn't going to cover all of our costs, but a lot of us did a lot of legwork and used our skills in other ways to have a Anzac Day commemoration and we had 300 people come. Our town's only got about 150 people in it, but we had all the people who grew up there and perhaps moved away and everyone came back and it was an amazing day and it also we used the money to put some plaques in and to recognise the women who hadn't been recognised from World War II. So we're a soldier settler community and it was to recognise the women who were nurses or played other roles, who also came to that region. But of course, it was the man, the women who were nurses or played other roles who also came to that region, but of course, it was the man who was granted the plot of land, if you like, back in the day. So it was to put the women up as well and it was like fantastic and we put a plaque where the old school used to be, which you know hasn't been around for a long time, so it was great for so many reasons, but it really got us together as a community, too, to understand like what we could do.
Kirsten Diprose: 37:18
Natalie, another thing I wanted to ask you about is small businesses, and how can small businesses perhaps access grants or be part of the process, because obviously, your main priority is communities and not-for-profits, but I know there are a lot of innovative people, particularly women with businesses, that would love to get involved somehow. How can they work with potentially FRRR communities or grants?
Natalie Egleton: 37:44
It's a great question and it's the challenge of the not-for-profit versus private space in general, and so we're technically not allowed to fund private businesses and no philanthropy is. But what we know, of course, is that small business is vital to the fabric of small towns and they're not different. Community and business is not different, it's all the same, and so drawing those sort of arbitrary lines around how things happen is a bit unhelpful. So the way that we tend to approach it is in our funding. We have a very strong preference for local procurement. So if projects are being delivered, we preferably see things being procured locally. It becomes trickier the more remote you get and sometimes that's just not feasible.
Natalie Egleton: 38:26
But wherever possible whether it's building contractors, whether it's catering contractors, cleaning contractors, graphic design, website all of the things that produce might need there's a really strong encouragement from us and support for local procurement and local businesses to be involved in those, and there's absolutely no problem in terms of being provided in a community group using that grant to pay local businesses.
Natalie Egleton: 38:49
So that's absolutely a great thing to do. The other is things like training programs or when you're getting, say, a community committee getting some governance training, or a group of women in town, as I was describing earlier, having some digital capability training or entrepreneurship training, that kind of thing which blurs lines a little bit more about people getting skilled up for businesses. We can fund things like that, and we certainly have. And, again, we're very comfortable with local procurement or regional procurement, and we do love it when women are delivering those as well, because it's supporting a different part of the economy. So that's the way we try to get around the mud be flowing to the small business community as well as the community groups, because it all benefits the strength of the community.
Kirsten Diprose: 39:40
I know our listeners to this podcast like really innovative, awesome rural women and I'm hoping they've got I know they will have like multiple ideas flicking around in their heads right now for their own communities. Can you give me an example of just a really interesting, creative idea that FRRR helped to bring to life?
Natalie Egleton: 40:02
We made over a thousand grants last year. Lots of different ideas. There's a few initiatives that I think are transferable and a couple that I've really loved, and for me, one of the things that I really notice is that when women connect, amazing things happen, and it's often the space to connect that is the hardest thing to find or to create time for. So there's a couple of projects that we've funded a couple of times over the years. So Channel Country Ladies Day I think we've funded it a few times now, but we certainly got involved at its inaugural one, which was really in the peak of drought for Queensland. So channel country, inland Queensland, in essentially the bottom corner, where all that beautiful channel country is, and it was really an idea about how to bring women who were very geographically isolated, living out on big stations, juggling all of the complexity of life out there doing the homeschooling, school of the air, dealing with really severe enduring drought conditions and dry times and trying to keep the business going and trying to keep themselves well and connected. And there just was nothing for them. And so this event committee came together thinking what if we put something together that created a few days of reprieve for them, and so I think the tagline of the event is Inspiration in Isolation, and it's been running for quite a few years now and they change locations each year. So they've been in Birdsville, I went to one in Junda, which is, however, many Ks south of Longreach you just keep driving down and they provide an injection into those places financially and economically and they bring together. It's an amazing setup and there's hundreds of women that come in. We've got tents set up, we've got RVs, et cetera. Beautiful food, I said, health checks, small business courses, entrepreneurship development, spaces to develop, you know, just a really beautiful range of opportunities that just wouldn't be there for those women.
Natalie Egleton: 42:02
And what happens from that is collaboration start and women start to talk about oh yeah, I'm doing that too, or how do we? How might I build on that idea? Or, oh, you're selling that. I've got this other platform that I'm working on so that I can sell my stuff. What if we did this? I've got this other platform that I'm working on so that I can sell my stuff. What if we did this? So that's for me, the kind of thing that excites me. And really the funding we provided was tiny and they had lots of other funders in the mix, but it was just a seed of an idea about this idea of there's a lot of women out there who are isolated and we know that there's a bigger story for them. What can we do? And then it's turned into this incredible project that just keeps delivering every year.
Jen McCutcheon: 42:36
I love that I want to go.
Natalie Egleton: 42:39
It's seriously one of my best experiences in my whole time at FRRR.
Kirsten Diprose: 42:44
I think we definitely need to take the show on the road. Well, we are taking it to Albury, but I've got to go further inland. What do you reckon, Jen?
Jen McCutcheon: 42:52
100%. You have to take it on the road all over Australia, I think, and for those who want to find out more about FRRR grants, you can head to frrr. org. frrrorgau and if you fancy heading west to Callubri Station, you can follow Angie and her crew at Callubri Station on social media.
Kirsten Diprose: 43:10
Special thanks to Natalie and Angie, of course, for being part of today's episode, and to Cheeky Mac Productions for sponsoring it. Do their survey of rural women and you'll hear from the lovely Danielle McAlpine-Johnson very soon. And, of course, you can follow us over Instagram to keep in touch.
Kirsten Diprose: 43:27
And Ahir, you have a brand-new podcast coming out, as if you weren't busy enough, I know, and look, we're full steam ahead with ducks, but it's called Town Criers and I'm doing this podcast with Damien Callinan, who's a comedian and actor. He lives in Melbourne but regularly comes out to country Australia. So we come to a town and we stay there a few days and we get to know all of those like secret stories of the town or the funny names you've got for local things and we tell it in a funny but really respectful way. You're totally not about putting towns down no, never. I mean, we love rural Australia but it doesn't mean there's not plenty to laugh about in your town, like I think. If you think of your own town, you have this kind of fond love of it, whether it's the old rivalries with other towns or the big things, the quirky history. We're here for all of that. So the first episode is about Portland, which is a coastal town in southwest Victoria.
Jen McCutcheon: 44:23
Is that near you? Yeah, it's about an hour and a half away, so right next door in country terms.
Kirsten Diprose: 44:28
Yeah, absolutely so. I have been there quite a few times before, but we really uncover some stories, stuff I had certainly never heard about. In fact, we have an exclusive story and you'll love this as a journo. It's about a well-known politician. I'll definitely have to have a listen to that one. Yeah, it wasn't covered at the time of the incident, but we have got the exclusive. So just search for Town Criers wherever you get your podcasts. We have a website, too, where can see all the behind-the-scenes photos and blogs and, of course, we can come to your town, go to our website and you can find out how.
Jen McCutcheon: 45:04
So, while you were just talking about your podcast, do you know what I was up to? Listening intently, always, but the survey. They need 1,000 rural women and they're up to about 700 and something.
Kirsten Diprose: 45:18
Now they have one more thanks to me, but it was pretty easy, right that easy. And of course, you're a woman, so you can multitask Always. Thank you, jen. Well, let's meet Danielle McAlpine-Johnson, a director and producer, to tell us what this survey is in fact, all about. Danielle, thank you so much for sponsoring Ducks on the Pond.
Danielle McAlpine Johnson: 45:38
Oh, you're so welcome. Thank you for having me.
Kirsten Diprose: 45:40
What you guys are doing is amazing, thank you Tell me about the 1000 Rural Women Survey. What's it all about?
Danielle McAlpine Johnson: 45:49
So, in order to inform and substantiate our next documentary, which is titled Rural Daughters, we've launched a nationwide research piece to quantify the experiences of remote, rural and regional women around Australia. So through this research, we're seeking to understand the unique and often overlooked challenges and barriers and success stories that women go through in their leadership journey in rural Australia and, through harnessing their voice, to really create some positive change.
Kirsten Diprose: 46:21
And how have you gone getting people to do the survey?
Danielle McAlpine Johnson: 46:24
We have had such an overwhelming response, which I think really speaks to the fact that RRR women want to be heard and they're passionate about social justice. So we've had over 750 responses in five weeks, which I think is pretty epic.
Kirsten Diprose: 46:39
Yep, so you just need a few hundred more.
Danielle McAlpine Johnson: 46:41
Yes, that's correct. Yes, and particularly from states outside of Victoria, because we've got a large network here but not so much outside of Vic.
Kirsten Diprose: 46:50
Yeah, so where do you live and what's your connection to rural Australia?
Danielle McAlpine Johnson: 46:55
So I grew up on a small hobby farm in Gippsland. I was there for the first 19 years of my life and grew up covered in mud and riding motorbikes and horses and playing in the dams with the eels and yabbing and then moved away to the big city, as you do, to pursue career and purpose and everything. And we've moved back in the last four years and are living very close to Mild Farm on the beach. So we're living very rural at the moment and our kids are loving it. But I'm seeing that many of the issues that I saw as a young girl are still quite prevalent in rural Australia for women. But I'm looking at those issues through the lens of a mother. I've got four kids now, so it's a different experience through the lens of a mother.
Kirsten Diprose: 47:37
I've got four kids now, so it's a different experience. Yeah, you've obviously been inspired to do this research and this documentary.
Danielle McAlpine Johnson: 47:46
What's the need or why is it so important? I think that there's some statistics already show in our preliminary research, and I think many women around the country know that there's such a gap between so many things. You know we're talking about gender inequality and traditional gender norms, distance and isolation. Unfortunately, there's higher rates of domestic violence and family violence in the regions, the limitations to access to healthcare and childcare. And then we've got natural disasters, which I've been working on for the last three years through the bushfire recovery and some of the documentaries we've been doing in that space, and it's just evident that these things really need more awareness and change. And then I'm a wife to a Bahamian man and my children are interracial, so there is racial prejudice there as well. That I've experienced for the first time in my life and going oh my gosh, this is horrendous and this needs to change. So it's pretty close to home as a mother.
Kirsten Diprose: 48:41
That's awful to hear. Is it hard to get people to talk about some of these issues, though? Is that why it's more of a survey, where people don't have to be identified if they don't want to?
Danielle McAlpine Johnson: 48:54
Absolutely. Yeah, we've intentionally made it anonymous for that very reason. It's very hard to talk about some of these things as a mother and a daughter and a sister and an aunt, and I think being able to give these women a voice is quite a powerful exercise and quite therapeutic. They can leave their name if they want, or they can stay anonymous.
Kirsten Diprose: 49:14
Yeah, great. Now I like asking this question of every sponsor, given, you're involved in business, you have your own company, your production house, what's the best piece of business advice that you haven't given or you live by, or anything you'd like to impart?
Danielle McAlpine Johnson: 49:32
I love that question. I think to be authentic is really important and, as a filmmaker, if there's production houses out there, I think making sure that you're using your product for the good of mankind is really important. There's so much rubbish out there on television and in film at the moment that is not helping the world at all, and I think we have an ability as filmmakers to really be transparent and vulnerable and use our craft and our business to really create change in the world. Even if you're in a commercial space, you can create goodness in the world, and I think that's so important. And then my other piece of advice would probably be just always remember your why it's tough. It's a tough industry to be in, especially for a woman, and I think remembering your why why you started is really important to help you to persist, to keep going.
Kirsten Diprose: 50:20
I like that, so you're not about to start creating a Love Island Married at First Sight kind of production.
Danielle McAlpine Johnson: 50:28
Hey, they have their space in the world, and I certainly don't judge the producers that create that type of content. I think there's a place for it. I just think that even in those spaces, you can create beautiful narratives that touch the heart of humanity. We'll just die waiting?
Kirsten Diprose: 50:42
probably, Danielle. How can people find the survey? Obviously you're talking to rural women now. And yeah, where do they go so that they can do the survey? How long does it take?
Danielle McAlpine Johnson: 50:53
So if they jump on our website, which is cheekymaccom, a little link will pop up right there and it only takes 15 minutes. So grab a cuppa and sit down at the table when you can find time, and I think it's quite a therapeutic process for many women.
Kirsten Diprose: 51:09
Yeah, and I did it and it was really quick, probably took me less than 15 minutes and I found it an easy process. So, yeah, well done on that. And what's the research that it's informing, because FedUni is involved as well. Is that right?
Danielle McAlpine Johnson: 51:25
That's correct. So we wanted to make sure that we were ethically approved and we're touching some pretty challenging topics, so we wanted to make sure we were doing that well, and so we reached out to Federation University and they will be putting together the final piece with us. That will become a published journal so anybody can access that white paper around the world, which is pretty exciting. And then it will also be placed in a book and used to inform our documentary Rural Daughters and then study guides about the documentary, so Australian schools can study it as well.
Kirsten Diprose: 52:02
Fantastic. Danielle McAlpine-Johnson, thank you so much for joining us and for sponsoring an episode.
Danielle McAlpine Johnson: 52:08
Oh, you're so welcome. I'm cheering you on.
Kirsten Diprose: 52:11
Thank you. And you can find the 1,000 Rural Women Survey online. You can Google that or put in Cheeky Mac Productions. Google Danielle McAlpine Productions, follow her on Instagram and all roads will take you to the 1000 Rural Women's Survey. So go and do it and tell your friends and I'll catch you next time.
