‘Say Their Name’ - How to help someone through baby loss

Season 5

26 May

For too long, we as a society have dealt with the loss of a baby, by almost pretending he or she didn’t exist. But for the mother, that baby is always with her. The love is the same as it would be for any child; it’s just as strong and fierce.

But the grief is unique. The grief is for the baby they love, but also the future they never got to have. This can then be compounded by a healthcare system that doesn’t always assist grieving mothers in the way that’s needed.

In this special episode of Ducks of the Pond, we hear individual stories of grieving and baby loss, as well as a collective response from a group of Warrnambool mothers, who call themselves “the Electric Eight”. It’s a support group that started forming 13 years ago, for mothers whose babies have died.

You’ll hear the voices of:

Louise Murrihy - Mother of 3 who is speaking on behalf of the Electric Eight. She lost her first born son, Max. She’s based in Warrnambool, VIC
Rochelle Olsen - Mother of 3 who founded The Baby Loss Mentor. She lost her first born son, Edward. She’s a pharmacist, based in Hillston, NSW

This collective response is so valuable, because it’s a reminder that we all grieve differently - and that mothers who have lost a baby have different needs at different times. You’ll gain insight how a mother might be feeling and how to best support her as a friend, family member or co-worker.

This is a Rural Podcasting Co. production. Love this podcast? You might also like: Two Smart Blondes and Town Criers.

Louise Murrihy: 0:05
Anything that starts with at least should not be mentioned. There is no way that any good has come from losing your child.
Rochelle Olsen: 0:14
I know it's uncomfortable. I know the whole situation can be so uncomfortable to sit with a mum who's just lost their baby, but if you go and have a couple with them they'll be relieved. They've got to know that you give a shit.
Kirsten Diprose: 0:28
Welcome to this very special episode of Ducks on the Pond by the Rural Podcasting Co. This season is sponsored by By CC Fine Jewellery. We're talking about baby loss, which is a topic that I know is very close to the founder of By CC Fine Jewellery , Ashley Molloy, having experienced baby loss herself. I'm Kirsten Diprose. This episode is a little bit different to others in that you're going to hear from individuals, but also a collective. When we asked Louise Murrihy to come on and share her experience of losing her baby Max, she agreed, but wanted to share it along with the stories of other mums and bubs.
Kirsten Diprose: 1:11
Louise is part of a group of baby loss mothers in Warrnambool, Victoria. They call themselves the Electric Eight. So Louise went out and asked them all a series of questions, so you will hear their collective responses about what their treatment was like in hospital and subsequently in the healthcare system, what the grief is like and how they remember their baby. The point is, every experience is different, but I think there is one universal takeaway. Now I haven't lost a child, so I won't pretend to even slightly understand what it would be like, but through all of these women's experiences you get that once a mum, always a mum, that in a sense they're still parenting their babies, even though their babies are gone. And these mums need to and they want to, just the same as they parent their children, who are with them. That love is as fierce and maternal as any mother's love.
Kirsten Diprose: 2:14
You'll also hear from Rochelle Olsen, who is a pharmacist turned baby loss mentor, after she lost her first baby boy, Edward, and realised mothers needed a lot more support than what was being provided. She's based at Hillston, which is north of Griffith in New South Wales, and understands how being rural just adds another layer of difficulty. She works with mothers, but also offers resources and supports to friends, communities and workplaces who want to understand how to best support a mother who has lost a baby. And that's what you'll really get from this episode. Gone are the days where the baby was never mentioned again. And, yes, it's a tricky topic. You will feel all the feels. So perhaps find a time when you're able to do that, but I really urge you to listen. The stories are incredible and there's hope and beauty amongst the pain. We start off with Louise Murrihy. She's a graphic designer, youth worker and mother of young children. She sat down with Jackie Elliott to share her story and the stories of the Electric Eight.
Jackie Elliot: 3:28
Perhaps, Louise, would you like to introduce yourself and tell us who Max is.
Louise Murrihy: 3:39
Yes, I can introduce myself and my son, Max. So Max was born on November, the 12th 2017, at 32 weeks gestation at the Mercy Place Hospital in Heidelberg in Melbourne. He was immediately connected to CPAP, which is continuous positive airway pressure, and with this breathing support, he survived a further six weeks in a humidity crib breathing support. He survived a further six weeks in a humidity crib. During this six-week period. It enabled time for testing to be done.
Louise Murrihy: 4:14
Some of the testing went all the way over to Western Australia, across the country, to understand why he couldn't independently breathe on his own and for a very small chance, in hope of change, we were able to do kangaroo care, which is a skin-to-skin technique which involves holding your baby to your chest, and my beautiful dad bought me a very expensive pair of Bose headphones and I would sit there for hours doing kangaroo care with him and listening to music hours doing kangaroo care with him and listening to music. Max spent three weeks at Mercy Place and then a further three weeks on the butterfly ward at the Royal Children's Hospital, and till this day, he is still our mystery. We call him, or I call him, mystery Max. All the tests returned negative and at that time there were no answers and at the end of the 37 weeks which medically is deemed full term, he was redirected care and that was on Christmas Eve. Redirection of care basically means just removal from the CPAP the breathing life support.
Jackie Elliot: 5:28
That's a lot, Lou, to take on, and as your friend, even though I've met you only in the last couple of years, I know how much work you've put into yourself personally for your health, for your mental and physical wellbeing. And to share this story on the Ducks on the Pond podcast means a lot, and so we've done this interview a bit differently today. We've got a few questions that have been answered by a fabulous group that Lou's a part of, and I've talked about this previously. It's not a group anyone ever wants to have to be a part of, but it is a group of women with different and unique stories that all have come with their own challenges, but there's a lot of common and similarities in between those stories. I guess this turns over to you, Lou. What can you tell us about the ladies and a bit about the research that you've collected over the last couple of weeks?
Louise Murrihy: 6:28
Thanks, Jack, before I get going, I'd actually really love to acknowledge my husband, Brandt, for supporting me in doing this podcast.
Louise Murrihy: 6:40
He's always supported me and he is someone that I really admire. And I'd also, yeah, to welcome and acknowledge and introduce the group of women who I've asked to be a part of this conversation today. So, the Fab Five are an informal group of women here in Warrnambool and they all experienced infancy loss, whether that was full term, close to term, stillborn or a loss shortly after birth, and that was all based in 2011. Over time, sadly, the group grew to eight and we now call ourselves the Electric Eight. I've also invited Maddy McConnell to be a part of this conversation. She's a midwife up at Southwest Healthcare here in Warrnambool and she's done some incredible work changing bereavement policies up at the hospital, and I'd also like to acknowledge that it's not easy reopening these old wounds and memories, and for this I wholeheartedly thank them for being a part of this movement, because every one of us women are so unique and I think that all of our different grief stories will give a really broad scope to the questions that you have provided us with today.
Jackie Elliot: 8:07
Thanks, Lou, and that's the thing. These questions too. As someone who's definitely wants to be respectful, with a curiosity, though, and of course, all of these questions have been absolutely asked with respect, and I know that we may have opened up that opportunity to say, hey, if this question hasn't been asked in a particular way, how would you like us to reframe it? But I would love if you could start with introducing the ladies of the Electric Eight and tell us a little bit of brief background of who they are about, their baby, baby, and then we will roll into some questions beautiful thanks, jack um.
Louise Murrihy: 8:48
I'd like to acknowledge the mothers and babies of our group using their words Hermina Harrington. Thomas was our first born baby. He was born with a genetic condition called partial trisomy 16, which isn't compatible with life and we didn't know at the time. He was perfect. I had Thomas in Warrnambool but shortly after flown to the Royal Children's Hospital and spent a further nine days fighting for his life, but didn't make it, and with him went a beautiful life that he didn't get but didn't make it, and with him went a beautiful life that he didn't get. Our hearts were shattered for a very long time. Kate Dobson even though Poppy's not with us, she's still very much part of our family. Leanne Radley Tex still had a soul and that he still impacted the world and me, my family and and everyone that knows me and loves me, and just that he matters. Tammy Ness, my baby Charlie was loved from the moment I knew I was pregnant and still very loved. Also that he meant a lot to our family and his name is mentioned often. He's meant to be turning 13. I wish he was.
Louise Murrihy: 10:08
Charlie was born stillborn, at 38 weeks gestation. Understandably, we were devastated, being two years into running a thriving rural store in southwest Victoria and having a 20 month old daughter wanting to know where the baby is, it was tough. It's tough for anyone to suffer this kind of shocking and unexpected loss. Olivia Farley Our daughter Matilda, was and is so loved and wanted. She had Down syndrome and from the moment we found that out at 29 weeks, we loved and wanted her in this world even more.
Louise Murrihy: 10:47
Susanna Maxwell Wright, I'd like people to know that you still love your baby and grieve them. Even if they never took a breath, there's still a lifelong love and bond. You grieve all the lost time and missed milestones. The grief catches you by the throat when you're least expected. There are triggers everywhere. My baby, ella, was and is a sacred, precious being. Ashley Quinlan Sadie was born sleeping after an uncomplicated pregnancy over 32 weeks.
Louise Murrihy: 11:23
Sadie was born a perfect baby, just without a cry or first breath. We opted for an autopsy to determine her cause of death and results were inconclusive. We never have and never will know why our precious firstborn was taken from us. We have since had three children and all know about Sadie and speak of her often. She is and forever will be a huge part of our lives and family and we will forever speak her name, honour her and continue to raise awareness for stillbirth. I'd like to add on to my introduction of Max and just say that Max changed my life overnight. He is very much a part of me, he is a gem in my heart, he is my gift and I truly believe that he was sent to me to steer me onto the path of helping others in this world. He's made me say yes to new opportunities like this one, jack, and he well and truly pushed me out of my comfort zone. He would be seven years old this year.
Jackie Elliot: 12:54
Louise, thank you so much for sharing the words of the electric eight and telling us about their baby, and I think this is a good way now to lead into about seeking support and what support was offered and whether they did seek help and what is out there for someone like the Electric Eight over the last 13 years, how have those services changed? But, yeah, what's out there for women in these communities?
Louise Murrihy: 13:18
Yeah, thanks, Jack. A really key major service that all of the women underwent was counselling, and this was either offered in the hospital or sought out independently. Some mothers and couples had really positive counselling sessions, while others were really quite negative. Counselling was available both on site in the hospital or even in the privacy of their own home. Unfortunately, one mother didn't receive any follow-up care after her baby was born in Melbourne, so her mother-in-law stepped in and arranged for a local midwife to come and check on her. Another individual felt that counselling staff didn't really quite understand the brief and were defensive about possible legal action against the hospital. This negative experience then really discouraged her to go on and seek further help, which was a real shame. One hospital social worker was described as quite young and inexperienced and in the end it was her local GP that set aside an hour a week for a really prolonged period of time just to sit and talk with her. Some felt the services to be scarce, rurally, the non-face-to-face sessions quite impersonal, so then independently went and sourced private social work and psychologists through their GP. The Red Nose Hospital visited the home of one family. Here are some of the other responses, and I've decided to use the words of the mother. I've decided to use the words of the mother.
Louise Murrihy: 15:07
The Royal Children's Hospital has a great support group for bereavement families and services like the cuddle cot, counselling, a photographer. We could have bathed our baby if we chose to. We weren't rushed and we could stay with him for as long as we wanted. The staff at the hospital were kind, supportive and also clearly hurting for us. The local funeral home were gentle, kind and very respectful. I would have liked to have been offered a photographer, hand and feet prints or moulds made, but it was too late. While you'd never wish child loss upon someone, we were lucky to find other people going through the same thing and to have the opportunity to catch up with these wonderful women, to cry, to talk and sometimes even laugh together. And I guess on top of this, Jack was my experience.
Louise Murrihy: 16:02
So a range of services were offered at the time in both hospitals in Melbourne and we were actually offered to have Max baptised as well while we're in the hospital, which we did take that up. The professional photography service and a music therapy service was also offered. We were connected to a hospital social worker who was a really good mentor in between services and we were also connected with the pastoral care workers and these women, the two from the Mercy and from the Royal Children's. I just hit it off with these women. There was an instant connection and I'll be forever grateful for these spirit. I think they're called spiritual care workers now, but I'm still in contact with one of them, sister Helen from the Royal Children's Hospital hospital and, yeah, they're just incredible.
Louise Murrihy: 17:11
We had hand and feet prints made on paper and around the time, as I said, it was Christmas, so with the hand and the feet prints, they actually made them into Christmas baubles. We were given a bereavement box and I went through that last week and that was filled full of pamphlets on understanding, grief and resources around the major services like SANS, red Nose, lifeline, beyond Blue, and even a beautiful necklace from the Angel Gowns Australia. The Royal Children's are just phenomenal. They have a family bereavement support program and this is run monthly and they have different groups within this monthly offering. They have a newsletter that goes along with this, an annual memorial service, information about specialist community support programs and education and information to actually help support staff around bereavement practices and issues, which I thought was, yeah, really interesting.
Louise Murrihy: 18:16
Louise, tell me how you honored the life of Max sure so, two weeks out from the Good Friday appeal, after we lost Max, I decided to jump on board nothing like the last minute and we were able to raise $12,000 through goods and services donated by friends, family and the community. Janice and Colin McKenna, who's just sadly passed away, donated $5,000. Yeah so we had silent auction raffles and some of the local musicians in town donated their time to provide some entertainment throughout the day. Angel gowns my beautiful Nana Thelma handmade on her sewing machine almost 50 angel gowns in different coloured satin with embroidered symbolic images on the bodice. Each time Nana would finish a batch, I'd drive them up to the Royal Children's and hand deliver them to Tara, our NICU nurse, or Helen, the pastoral care worker, and that was, yeah.
Louise Murrihy: 19:27
That was also very much a part of the healing process as well. Nana's work was acknowledged with a letter honouring her time and dedication at her age in her 90s, and I'd like to quote Nana, but she said that she wanted the babies to be sent off looking their best. So such a beautiful thing to share with Nana as well. The Greatest Gift, co, which I'll touch on a little bit further on into our conversation. This was a small side hustle that I created which was curated gift packs geared around comfort, celebration or just because and one dollar per sale was donated to the Royal Children's Hospital charity.
Jackie Elliot: 20:13
But yeah, I'll touch on that one a little bit further on down the track that's beautiful to honor the life of a loved one, and a loved one that hasn't been in your life for very long. There's so many ways to go about it and I and there's no wrong it's what works, what feels good, what brings you hope and what helps you get through, maybe, the hard days or even the good days. What are some of the other things that the Electric Eight have done to honour the life of their baby?
Louise Murrihy: 20:48
Yeah, sure, again, this is a great one and we're all so unique. So there's been some really beautiful ways that the mothers have done this on their own individual grief journey. So I guess, to kick off, when it came to funerals, each mother and their family had a really different approach. Some held a full Catholic mass in a church, while others had a closed private ceremony or an intimate graveside burial. There were the others that decided that cremation was for them and either keeping those ashes or scattering them In terms of remembrance. Some spoke about their babies every single day, others didn't, but the ones that had siblings really chose to involve them in those conversations, the ones that had photography done like to display them around the home, and even the hand and footprints were either displayed around the home as well, just to really keep that, that memory, alive. Symbolism played a really big role. For instance, poppy is a symbol of remembrance and her mother collected homeware and decor featuring poppies. They informally named their house Amapola, played that song, that related song, during their funeral and even installed a stained glass window with Amapola in their home and got henna tattooing of poppies around that time for her birthday. Around that time for her birthday, creative tributes were really common, with scrapbooking song lyrics, photos and other memories as a part of the healing process. Other mothers had jewellery made like a necklace with the name, birth date and birthstone. One even crafted mosaic stepping stones for their garden featuring butterflies and animals. Many created special memorial projects, like a dedicated garden area, one called hers, wren's Garden, where they planted meaningful flowers and buried the placenta in a special area. The same mother fundraised to set up a bereavement room and provide keepsakes for families at our local hospital, whilst launching a website to help fathers connect after experiencing child loss lovefromdadcomau. Her name's Maddy McConnell and I'd like to read her personal statement because she's the mother behind the bereavement changes up at Southwest Healthcare in Warrnambool and she has done an absolutely incredible job. So here's her statement.
Louise Murrihy: 23:48
After Wren passed away, I felt an immense need to put my energy into something. I started a GoFundMe with the aim of upgrading bereavement options at Southwest Healthcare. I wanted to mimic the items and memory making options that we had access to. At the Royal Children's with Wren, we raised over $16,000. The Royal Children's with Wren we raised over $16,000. With this, we funded 39 perinatal loss. In practice, what hospital staff need to know? Courses for midwives through the Centre of Perinatal Excellence COPE. We also created a children's book for siblings called Born to Fly. Children's book for siblings called Born to Fly. Clay for hand and footprints. Heartfelt inkless print cards, paper for handprints and cot cards, angel gowns, which are precious outfits for the babies box and follow forever in our heart. Journals, embossing ink for prints, a new heartfelt camera. Tiny Ziploc bags for their locks of hair, and memory boxes to hold all of these items.
Louise Murrihy: 25:00
Five weeks after Wren passed away, we met the CEO of the hospital to discuss what happened and to discuss what is needed in our community. Being rural, we don't have access as easily like those in metropolitan areas. Our time with Wren at the Children's was incredibly special and definitely helped us on our grief journey. Because of this, we spoke about the importance of having a designated space for families going through the loss from miscarriage to paediatrics From. There is where the bereavement room was formed. We teamed up with another family and raised over $90,000 to help implement the room.
Louise Murrihy: 25:40
Along with a team of staff at the hospital, we picked important items such as a cuddle bed, which is very similar to that used in palliative care, so family members can cuddle together. It's a single bed that can extend outwards to nearly a double bed, so parents can cuddle comfortably with their child. We also purchased a couch that can fold out to a king single so other family members can stay, and the funds also help cover the cost of converting a double room into it, having a kitchenette facilities, soft furnishings and a change in color and design to make the space warm and inviting. It's our hope that families who are going through the worst times in their lives feel supported, loved and safe in an environment where they can focus on making beautiful and everlasting memories. What an incredible achievement that maddie and her network have been able to achieve. Oh man, that's amazing. Totally. I needed. I needed that from her. She just had a short little blurb and I was like no, maddie, you've got to flesh that out.
Jackie Elliot: 26:50
This needs more air time it sounds like Lou you've you've found lots of different ways to give you hope or purpose, but able to give something back to other people, thanks.
Louise Murrihy: 27:03
Jackie, yeah, I'm lucky that, yeah, I was able to have access, access to that help to enable me to be able to facilitate what I'd done. But I really think my upbringing has got a lot to do with this and I think this is where you and I connect. On a rural front, but growing up on a dairy farm, we were really taught and brought up really quite tough and resilient. I'm one of six kids three boys, three girls. Gender did not discriminate. We, us girls, worked just as much as the boys did, and I think I do.
Louise Murrihy: 27:43
I believe that exposure to everything on the land in terms of the circle of life whether it be birth, death, pulling calves, breech calves, cows that were struck down with paralysis, that didn't survive milk fever, calves that were born as runts and had to be put down or sold, even artificial insemination it was my job to, as soon as I got off the school bus, I'd have to go down to the dairy and help load up those AI guns for dad and, yeah, that exposure was just second nature to me and I just think it really propelled or was provided a really strong scaffolding for my recovery.
Louise Murrihy: 28:27
That and our Catholic faith in God. We went to church every weekend at St Anne's in Pernham. I sung and dad played the keyboard piano that too, and my parents really strength based mindset. I really think all of those things combined and this is where I'm linking in us rural women, or my link with yourself and I yeah, it really set the bar and core foundation to who I am. So I'm incredibly grateful and I wouldn't change my upbringing on the farm for a thing.
Kirsten Diprose: 29:06
Our parents sacrificed everything for us. There's strength in numbers. Hey, I'm so glad those Electric Eight women found each other in their community. Rochelle Olsen found that when she lost her baby Edward, she needed a lot more ongoing support than what she could find and then also, navigating the healthcare system is incredibly hard when you're grieving. So she started her own service for mums. Let's meet Rochelle.
Rochelle Olsen: 29:37
So I'm from the bush, originally from Hilston, new South Wales, and moved to Dubbo. I've been a pharmacist here for over 20 years, met and married a local Dubbo bloke and our firstborn child. He died seven hours after he was born, so it was classed a neonatal death. His name was Edward. I found I really struggled going back to work as a pharmacist. It's an incredibly detailed job, detail-driven job, and I needed to have a break from that. Luckily, we went on and had two little pocket rockets, who are now six and three. So I've stayed at home with them and I just found that even in a regional like I'm in a regional city in Dubbo and I still couldn't find personalised or tailored support that I needed as a high-functioning businesswoman mum. That just I, just I really struggled and I felt like I was just searching I often say I was like searching for the diamonds in the ruffle, like that yes, that works for me, no, that doesn't work for me, that does work for me and tried everything and spent so much money on trying things out and I just felt there had to be a better way, regionally and rurally, to provide mums with that one-on-one, personalised support. And so I decided to just do it myself because I really enjoy helping people. I've been a helper all my life, obviously as a pharmacist, but even at school, and I've always loved the health and medical areas. I decided that this was a really great I wouldn't say career move, but I love being able to help women who are in that situation I was in and be able to give them like a bunch of flowers with all the things they need, rather than them having to go find different services that I call, like each of them as a flower. They're off searching them all, whereas I just give them the bunch and say this is what your options are in rural Australia. I go through with them everything they need and we work on a plan for them to take their next steps and I've just yeah, that's where it's come about. I've started creating the bush blossoms community so that we can start transferring into there, because there's actually a lot more mums that follow me and and we discuss stuff online and I think that's you know more in the hundreds of mums that I talk to. I haven't haven't necessarily engaged my services, but they are getting that community, which is what we need in the bush.
Rochelle Olsen: 32:19
So my two little boys know they have an older brother in heaven, so we cook and decorate a hideous blue cake for him and enjoy his birthday, no matter matter where we are. We were away on holidays last year and we still did the same thing, and so it is obviously bittersweet. I'd much prefer he was here and we didn't have to do any of this and that there was services for mums, but there's not. So I just look at this now as the way I parent him. I can't parent him here on earth like I do my other two boys. My dedication to him is doing this, and I think that's really powerful for me and a really good motivator, because I'd get up to take my boys to swimming lessons or to school or to preschool, and so I get up to do this for him. So that's, yeah, really important to me.
Rochelle Olsen: 33:10
But, yes, no, bittersweet, I worry that anything regional, anything rural, we really have to fight for it and not like I even experienced that as a pharmacist in the health system, so in the hospital system, if you really want that extra space or that something or other, you've really got to rally for it, like you've really got to fight for it, and I don't know if that's a health system wide thing, which I'm sure it probably is but I just find there's so many one-size-fits-all situations and they actually don't like they're actually in situations like this early miscarriage. Still there's so many different nuances for each of those losses and for every loss that it has to be personalised. I was sent, luckily, to NALAG and saw one of the ladies who had a wealth of experience there and luckily that's who we got, and so I went to her for a few months but I just didn't feel like I felt that was then the end, like there was nothing to follow up that support and there really wasn't. It's still taboo now, like it still is, does have that stigma around it, and it did then. But because I was on the other side of it, I didn't notice it, because I was just in such a wasteland, like this grey wasteland of autopilot and grief fault, that you just do whatever and you're not really sure. You just think you have to get back to work even though you can't even function.
Rochelle Olsen: 34:38
Lots of yeah, lots of stigma related issues, I think, and rural and remote people know grief almost more than anyone like they.
Rochelle Olsen: 34:47
They've experienced it.
Rochelle Olsen: 34:48
You grieve as a whole community, for people and for things, and for drought and for trauma, and things that happen affect that whole community, but when it comes to baby loss it's so silent the silence indefinitely, they say.
Rochelle Olsen: 35:04
And I went home to Hilston to do a talk at a women's health day and there was 60 women in there so it was massive for our little town and it was a brilliant day organized by one of the girls. And at the end of my talk, on the end of everyone's talks, and whenever we were mingling and four women come up to me that I'd known my entire life two had stillborns um, one a late miscarriage and one who had a child death, who just couldn't believe someone was talking about it openly, because I just quite openly introduced myself and my three boys when I speak and I was horrified because I'm like literally one I knew as a teacher when I was a kid. One lived around the corner like we just didn't know and, yeah, I think it really opened up a few conversations, just even that day. So imagine if you can repeat that all over the states and territories.
Kirsten Diprose: 36:04
It was from that event that Rochelle came up with the idea to create a virtual garden where people can have their baby's name alongside a flower. It's all online and it's called Edward's Garden, named after her baby boy. There you will find the names of babies from all over the country.
Rochelle Olsen: 36:22
So about once a month I plant in Edward's garden, so it's a virtual remembrance garden for our little babies, and there's a few choices of colours, flowers and what have you, and we plant them. We're actually on to our second garden so I have to get a computer whiz to join them up. But yeah, I get people to put their baby's names, even if it was a really early pregnancy loss and miscarriage, and they called it Peanut or something like that. That's what I put on there. Whatever they want to remember their baby by, we'll put birth dates, death dates, anything they want. And yeah, and when you look at it, I think we have 80 or 90 babies in there now and this always makes me realize how important saying their name is, some as far back as 30 odd years that the loss occurred and they wanted to include their little twin girls.
Rochelle Olsen: 37:14
So I like, I encourage that because, like, how, how long has that been held on to before they realize they can actually talk about it now? Yeah, and so really it's a beautiful little garden and you can just apply to register their name and um, I get in there and plant them once a month and um put them in with their little community of other babies that we hope are all there, but also also so that when mums go to check their babies they see there's all these little bush blossoms as well. Yeah, I think definitely that older generation, like from our mums back. I feel they still find it a little bit uncomfortable, but it allows them a space to actually say the name. They may have never even told anyone that they'd named the baby because they probably didn't see it and they probably definitely didn't hold it or anything like that.
Rochelle Olsen: 38:07
I've found those older generations. They might just write a name or they might just say to me I lost a baby, like just open up and say but they're also saying you're not alone, like this has been happening for eons, but we didn't know. We weren't comfortable. I'm still not really comfortable talking about it with the ladies I see that have have carried to a late lost or full term or stillbirth. I think they realized after working with me that that it was okay. They wish they'd shared a little bit more of their story so that people were more comforting to them and more empathetic to their situations and instead of holding it in and powering through rural rumpy style, let's just suck it up and keep going and I'll go to work and you have a rest.
Rochelle Olsen: 38:55
Blah, blah, blah. That if maybe they hadn't talked about it or said then the baby's name so that people could realise that this was a little human. That if maybe they hadn't talked about it or said then the baby's name so that people could realise that this was a little human that has affected their life, and that little human had a name and we had to actually bury him and we had to. There was a lot that he had to be registered at birth, deaths and marriages, and then he had to be registered through his death. It's just this huge amount of stuff that people go through silently. But if that little bit about saying their name opens up the awareness that that was a little person, we talk about that little person the same way we talk about our little living people, and that should be just as comfortable.
Kirsten Diprose: 39:38
As the Baby Loss Mentor, Rochelle has also been working on creating resources to help friends, colleagues and community. People know what to say or do for a mother who's lost her baby.
Rochelle Olsen: 39:51
And I'm finding I'm getting a lot more inquiries about this happened to our friend. What do we do? So I'm working on resources for that, because the resources for rural yes, there's helplines and yes, there's websites and there's virtual stuff, but where can I go see a human and have a cup of tea with them and talk about it? I often say the time for silence around this has long sailed. If you don't know what to say, a great thing is reach out, whether it's a text message or a phone call, and say I don't know what to say. A great thing is reach out, whether it's a text message or a phone call, and say I don't know what to say. This is horrible, but I want you to know that I'm thinking of you and I'm so sorry for your loss of. Use the baby's name. Say their name for always. Think that baby. They've lost the whole future with this. Like they're grieving not only the death of their baby but the. They're grieving the fact he won't go to kindergarten, he won't go to uni, he won't get married, he won't have kids. So it's a really it's a huge loss when you think about how far ahead you plan by straight away once you know that you're pregnant and so I guess if you think about it that as as your own living children, as if you were talking about them, like how devastating that would be. So just reach out and just let them know that they're not alone, that you're thinking of them.
Rochelle Olsen: 41:10
Another great thing and really this is really important is practical help getting husbands on board to get some I don't know mow their lawns, get a food train happening and I know bush communities can do this like on the turn of a hat. It's just that's ingrained, that kind of help, and I think that makes us feel like we're helping, but also it does it's realistic helping. We're giving them stuff that's nourishing and we're make a food train so they don't end up with 6 000 things on one day. But just reach out to them and let them know and I know it's uncomfortable, I know the whole situation can be so uncomfortable to sit with a mum who's just lost their baby, but if you go and have a couple with them, they they'll be relieved. They'll be relieved to maybe even I call it grace release because it is. It's like a little relief from that really heavy stuff and I can remember one of my girlfriends turning up with the box of maltesers and we just sat there and ate them and cried and laughed.
Rochelle Olsen: 42:15
And but also, if you do go visit, be wary not to overstay. You welcome last. You will be exhausted. Just say I'd love to come and see you. Would 11 o'clock tomorrow be okay? Make it specific so she can prepare Things like that. It's just got to be practical and they've got to know that you give a shit Like you do care, and not knowing what to say is fine, because a lot of us don't. But just say that Making that space safe for her is the ultimate goal. You want her to be able to open up and not bottle this up, and feel like she can come to you and talk about her babies in a way that you would talk about your kids to her. And you want that at a workplace and you want that on the farm. And you want that amongst a family, multi-generational family that lives together, like you want people to feel safe in any situation, but especially when you're so vulnerable after loss.
Kirsten Diprose: 43:13
It's a fairly new concept for workplaces to deal with the baby loss of a staff member. There is still so much about the way work is set up that reflects the times when it was only the men who went to a workplace, so it's no surprise that it's been overlooked. But encouragingly, more workplaces are wanting to understand this specific type of loss and grief and how to best support an employee through it.
Rochelle Olsen: 43:39
I don't think workplaces are on board enough and that's a big focus of my work now because it comes down to that safe space. If they don't feel safe going to work because they don't feel like they can grieve, they feel guilty. If they can't concentrate Presenteeism, which is where they're there but they're not there mentally but they're sitting at a desk, absenteeism like that, all that, all snowballs, and it's not their fault, it's the fact that the workplace is not built for that or is not accommodating that, and I think there's a really long way to go. The reason I think it's so important rurally for workplaces or community groups or sporting groups where we live and breathe in these little communities, so important for them to get educated around grief literacy and baby loss literacy and being comfortable in an uncomfortable situation, is because there isn't that face-to-face support and that community has to step up and be that support. That's the only solution to this. We can't have a baby loss mentor in every town in rural Australia, but I make sure that I'm available to every rural town in Australia. However, if there's a group that will accept that mummy for their morning coffee or just make a safe space for her, they become that support that she can lean on and not keep it quiet. And it needs to generate from the hospitals and those primary care settings and just everyone being on board and knowing about it, like being aware of it and knowing that it is okay to talk about it.
Rochelle Olsen: 45:17
And pregnancy after loss and parenting after loss and again, that's another thing I've struggled with. Really struggled with is the parent guilt with parenting after loss, is I shouldn't be shitty at my kids being little a-holes today because one of them's not here and so, because I'm a baby loss mum, I should really appreciate my little a-holes today, you know. But I've actually learnt through mums. I call it mothering to the power of baby loss because it's normal to have. I've got a three and a six-year-old boy. Like they fight, like captain dogs, and when I get cranky I think, oh, instant guilt. And I have a couple of really great friends that have got kids the same age difference. They're like man, that happens to all of us, that is okay.
Rochelle Olsen: 46:01
You will get cranky, you will get upset when your baby goes to daycare for the first day, because it is a really emotional time and it's not just because you're a baby lost mum, but there's just that little nuance where you're a little. There's an ache there about I miss this with him. We didn't get to do this with him, that sort of thing. It's all the normal emotions, with a little bit of this heartache about simple everyday things. I sometimes think maybe if he was here he'd pull these two into line. Oh my gosh, like having an older brother.
Rochelle Olsen: 46:35
But one thing I was going to say when you do get in touch with that mum for the first time, or that family, or you do go visit, a great tip that I like to give people is to mirror them. So they have a little bit of energy and they're a bit chatty, then, yes, chat back. But if they just want to sit and they just want to be a little bit silent, just don't try to fill the void. Just be silent with them and have that cup of tea with them. So mirroring their emotions without being really emotional, but try and follow their lead and just really tune into them.
Rochelle Olsen: 47:08
Don't think about how uncomfortable it is to you, because it will be and we know there's nothing you can say, we know that it's awkward and but it's just nice to know the people that are thinking of you because, honestly, your circle shrinks to the circle of trust. I call it. There's a movie with it. It becomes tiny, it's like really a really close-knit few people that are in that circle. But you start getting people you would never have known had been through your struggles and I guess it's with any trauma. But you also do unfortunately have secondary losses of friends that you thought would be there, that aren't, and that can be quite difficult, especially in small communities.
Kirsten Diprose: 47:51
So if you're looking to be that friend who can show up in the best way possible, I'll leave it to the words of the Electric Eight through Louise Marahi, who's speaking here with Jackie. The words of the Electric Eight through Louise.
Jackie Elliot: 48:02
Murrihy, who's speaking here with Jackie? What do you wish others would understand about your experience?
Louise Murrihy: 48:08
For sure, and I'll just again start with the women's responses from their words. Greeting a baby is lonely. There aren't stories to remember, no anecdotes to tell. It was never a first word, a story, a song, a toy. There is no baby to keep you awake, yet your breast is producing milk for no one to be fed. It's raw, it's cruel and it's unfair.
Louise Murrihy: 48:33
Our baby existed and deserves to be spoken of and remembered. Pretending they didn't exist only heightens our isolation. It's okay to talk about my baby. I'm comfortable with the tears, even 13 years on. I'm okay that you are having a living baby. I'm just not going to want to give them a cuddle just yet. This is me. It's going to be different for other bereaved parents.
Louise Murrihy: 49:01
It's a big part of my life, but I don't want it to define me. I wish the people who have only met me after I lost could have known the more carefree and relaxed me. I actually think I'm more tolerant of some people. You don't know what people are dealing with, current and historically. Just give people a chance and look for the good. You'll probably find it somewhere.
Louise Murrihy: 49:26
Check in on that person. You don't have to go into depth, just those little check-ins If you don't get much back. Hang in there and just keep it up, keeping their memory alive. It means so much more to someone to remember their birthday alive. It means so much more to someone to remember their birthday, anniversary or milestone. Pop it on your calendar, set a reminder. Simple text or even just an emoji alone means the world.
Louise Murrihy: 50:03
We need our friends, especially initially. Please don't walk away. Stay around, even if it's hard. We want to hear our baby's name forever, but also we know you don't know what to say, neither do we, so just be there, whether it's for a cuddle or for food. I was healthy. I was 30 years old and we were so ready for our family years old and we were so ready for our family. It's not something you just get over. I have no hard feelings towards those that don't understand my situation. It's not their fault. Some people have a raw natural ability to raise the topic and some just don't. Most people understand. It's an awful situation. Some people with children have a sense of guilt and put themselves in their shoes.
Jackie Elliot: 50:48
Lou. There's so many ways there, even if it's just an emoji. If you have someone in your life that's going through that, how can you be there for them?
Louise Murrihy: 50:57
Yeah, sure thing, jack for them. Yeah, sure thing, jack. Again, going from a collective response, from used words, I would love people to talk about my baby. I understand there isn't much to say as there is no history, but acknowledging the pain, the loss, the sadness, the short life is so powerful, the short life is so powerful. Anything that starts with at least, should not be mentioned. There is no way that any good has come from losing your child. Acknowledging that it is horrible, that it isn't fair, and also saying your child's name is incredibly important. Holding the space is just so important. Say their name, respect that.
Louise Murrihy: 51:47
Some situations in life are just difficult. I don't hold it against anyone who has said everything happens for a reason or similar. They just don't know what to say. And before my loss, do you know what? I didn't either. I'm sorry and I'm here if you need to talk, take a walk, take a break. It's a perfectly acceptable thing to say. Owning that you don't know what to say is okay, because even now, experiencing that myself, I still don't know what to say in other situations. Saying that it's God's will or that everything happens for a reason is not helpful. I don't believe in God.
Louise Murrihy: 52:29
Acknowledge the loss. It's simply more awkward and upsetting than saying nothing at all. There was people that I bumped into several times and every time it increasingly got more and more awkward because of the silence. It is so unbelievably hard to know what to say to someone who has lost someone that they love. So just try your best and if you're unsure, don't say much. Just bring love, warmth and food. Bring a meal, because when you've suffered a loss, there is absolutely no focus or energy for cooking, letting alone shopping or meal planning. Without being too hard on people that are trying to show kindness, please avoid saying you'll be okay, you'll have another baby, or at least you've got another child, and then, shortly down the track, please don't say that must have been a hard time Been. It hasn't been. It always will be. The pain never leaves. Losing a baby will be with a parent for their entire life. It's a helpless time. However, giving some of these suggestions a go will mean more than you can ever imagine.
Jackie Elliot: 53:41
To have that advice from people who have lived it. They're honest Don't let that person disappear in your life. They're going to need you more than ever. That's it, jack. I really appreciate that those ladies have shared all of that. It's a lot.
Louise Murrihy: 53:54
It is, it is, it's a lot and it just we're all so different. You look at the one here that says I don't believe in God. They're not my words because I believe in God. I believe in something else. But the reason why I've invited them all into this conversation it's to give that really broad scope of us all. And I think just sharing my story wouldn't I don't think there would have people wouldn't have gained a greater understanding. It's a lot, it's a heavy topic, but if we can help one person out there, then we've all done our job today.
Kirsten Diprose: 54:38
Thank you for listening to this episode of Ducks on the Pond. There are so many people to thank for making this episode happen, but first let's celebrate and thank these babies who give their mothers the strength to speak up and who have a legacy well beyond their short time on earth To Edward, to Max, to Wren, to Thomas, poppy, to Tex, to Charlie and Matilda, and to Ella and Sadie. Thank you, we remember and cherish you. Thank you, we remember and cherish you. Thank you to all the mothers who shared their stories, to Rochelle Olsen, the Baby Loss Mentor, and you can find her resources at thebabylossmentorcomau and reach out to her there too, if you'd like. Thank you to Louise Murrahee. She's the founder of the Greatest Gift Co. You can find her there. And also to all the wonderful mothers of the Electric Eight in Warrnambool who collectively shared their stories in a way that made sense for them. Your words are truly appreciated.
Kirsten Diprose: 55:56
Thanks to Jackie Elliott, too, for that interview. And, last but not least, thank you for listening. I know it's a hard topic, but I also feel I have such a better understanding of my friends who have lost babies and feel just that little bit more equipped to help someone when the unthinkable happens. Thank you to our season sponsor, buy Cece Fine Jewel fine jewelry for supporting this episode and the entire season. You can find them at their website by cc, which is b, y, c, c Fine jewelry australian gold keepsake jewelry. My name is Kirsten Dip rose and this is a rural podcasting co-production. I'll catch you next time.